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#1577 - 02/27/10 12:27 PM Re: Opera 2
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm no expert on any of this, but it's interesting that none of the sites that Chris has linked to provides any source for the Marie Roze story and, as we all know, disinformation spreads like wildfire on the Internet. The Wikipedia article on Carmen has 42 footnotes, but not one for this. The Wikipedia article on Marie Roze makes no mention of any approach by du Locle or Bizet (and it's interesting, en passant, to see there that she sang Leonora in La Favorita, like Carmen a mezzo role - maybe her Marguerite was transposed down?). The Marston site only says "Marie Roze is thought to have been Bizet's first choice. The short article about her in Grove doesn't say anything about Carmen.

One other thing: as Bizet died during the original run of Carmen, he can't have authorised any of the editions that came out afterwards. For example, recitatives (by Ernest Guiraud, who also monkeyed with The Tales of Hoffmann, replaced spoken dialogue for a long period and still do a lot of the time, and it's highly likely that sopranos wanted to sing the title-role and editions allowing this appeared.

Jon may have access to Winton Dean's book on Bizet - but if the Marie Roze story appears there, I'm surprised that Wikipedia didn't provide a reference. I think I'll slip a "citation required" tag into the Carmen article...

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#1578 - 02/27/10 04:29 PM Re: Opera 2
Rita Offline


Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 3264
Loc: St. Paul, MN
Yes, Chris said the Marston place said "thought to be". If there was any way of tracking down that "scabrous" comment, that should prove it. Marie Roze came up in a Jeopardy game once, didn't she? I don't know anything about her.

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#1579 - 02/28/10 05:19 AM Re: Opera 2
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've asked around, and someone pointed me to "Georges Bizet, Carmen" by Susan McClary. Here is the proof - a letter from Marie Roze to Bizet - and it contains the word "scabrous"! Also interesting to see that Offenbach's mistress Zulma Bouffar, was approached first. More about her (in French) here.

[This message has been edited by Andrew (edited 02-28-2010).]

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#1580 - 02/28/10 12:55 PM Re: Opera 2
Barbara Offline
Administrator

Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 13033
Loc: Citrus Heights, CA , US
Oho, so Galli-Mariť was third choice for the role, and Marie Roze thought the character was scabrous, not the opera. Well, there's still some of that going around; what role is it Natalie Dessay won't sing because the character isn't nice? But I'm glad to see Bizet got his "six additional first-upper-voices and four second-upper-voices" for the women's chorus.

Still, the interesting point in McClary's book is that the score was sold for publication two months before the premiere. Those two months were the period of intense revision during rehearsal, including the 13 versions of the "Habanera". So does that mean the "Habanera" in the score is not the one Galli-Mariť sang? It's more likely Bizet re-submitted the score to the publishers once the changes were nailed down. But that doesn't explain the reappearance of the high passages.

Andrew, thanks for finding McClary.

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#1581 - 02/28/10 06:30 PM Re: Opera 2
Jon Offline


Registered: 04/25/99
Posts: 6422
Loc: Newark, Delaware, USA
Sorry, I don't have the Dean book at hand.

The "New Grove online" article isn't as helpful as we might hope, having just a paragraph for all the pre-premiere details. It does confirm that he worked on the opera in 1873 before interrupting work for another project, and had engaged Galli-Marie by the end of the year.

On the Habanera, I'm working from memory here, but I've seen articles about the many versions of many numbers, the musical examples including a Habanera in 3/4 rather than 2/4, with a wholly different tune. That hardly seems possible to me, as the particular tango-like rhythm is surely part of the character of a habanera; so maybe my memory is mixing things up. But the objections to the characters were widely shared in early years, of course; and I can't see that the precise fitting of notes to voices would have been a factor at that point. I'd like to track this down, but realistically am not likely to do so very soon.

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#1582 - 03/06/10 02:28 PM Re: Opera 2
Barbara Offline
Administrator

Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 13033
Loc: Citrus Heights, CA , US
Anyone listening to Attila?

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#1583 - 03/06/10 02:59 PM Re: Opera 2
Kay Offline


Registered: 04/25/99
Posts: 17046
Loc: Roanoke, VA , USA
It just ended...completely new to me...rather reminiscent of other Verdi of the same period but I liked it.
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Kay
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#1584 - 03/06/10 06:34 PM Re: Opera 2
Anonymous
Unregistered


I heard half of it, including the big Attila/Ezio scene. Red-blooded early Verdi.

Samuel Ramey (as Pope Leo the xxxxth) has, alas, a wobble that you could drive a coach and horses through these days.

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#1585 - 03/13/10 01:12 PM Re: Opera 2
Barbara Offline
Administrator

Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 13033
Loc: Citrus Heights, CA , US
How about The Nose? Anybody still with that?

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#1586 - 03/13/10 02:21 PM Re: Opera 2
Rita Offline


Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 3264
Loc: St. Paul, MN
I listened to the whole thing. I don't know why.

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